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Retrocoders Community views regarding NET

Started by ron77, May 24, 2023, 12:20 PM

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ron77

OUR VIEWS ON NET FRAMEWORKS PROGRAMMING - A WARNING
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I must give a warning to all regarding the VB.NET board. My partner Mysoft who is the main Admin does not like VB.NET or NET Framework as it's OOP and other nasty things he Dispies so it is a wonder that such a board exists in the first place (NET is not Retro Programming. I'm afraid) the future of VB.NET Board is not certain here...

We strongly advise to not use NET (vb.NET or C# C Sharp) to program or learn to program despite it's maybe tempting as learning to code in NET Frameworks of Microsoft will lead you to BAD PRACTICE of coding and will make you be dependent on MS Frameworks and by so you will lose your freedom and independent (and control) in your coding and in your apps games and programs...

beware of the temptation of NET programming as the convenience and ease of use comes with a deadly price!

CharlieJV

VB and Gambas (and FreeBasic?) all have OOP stuff.

I don't really think of VB and Gambas as OO-BASIC.  I think them more as RAD and event-driven GUI-application and database-application versions of BASIC.

Regardless, they are all pretty BASIC-like.

I've got the mindset that anything BASIC / BASIC-like / BASIC-ish is good for BASIC in general.  For the good of BASIC, "l'union fait la force".

So over time, we've had unstructured BASIC, then structured BASIC.  Object-oriented BASIC is just a logical thing.

ron77

#2
hi CharliJV

You are entitled to your opinion...

here are some of mine:

1. freebasic has OOP but it doesn't force you to use OOP you have a choice on the other hand, MS NET forces you to use OOP in fact, everything in NET programming is heavily OOP stuff

2. freebasic (and other BASIC's) are mostly free open source and free software NET is a proprietary Framework where Microsoft tells you and decides for you what you can and cannot do or how you should do so

3. freebasic is BASIC VB.NET is not it's just NET Framework with BASIC Syntax freebasic is lightweight and elegant NET is bloated (18.6 GB download of the visual Studio with NET Framework and Core Framework and UWP? while freebasic is just less than 151 MB of the 32-bit Compiler)

4. when you learn freebasic or BASIC you learn to code and program when you learn NET (VB.NET and C Sharp) you just learn how to use the NET Framework with its limitations and OOP Libs and Framework

5. what you code in freebasic is YOURS and you are FREE to do with it as YOU CHOOSE what you code in VB.NET and C Sharp Microsoft ALLOWS you to USE and maybe even sell BUT it's NOT YOURS it's THEIRS

CharlieJV

Quote from: ron77 on May 24, 2023, 01:00 PMhi CharliJV

You are entitled to your opinion...

here are some of mine:

1. freebasic has OOP but it doesn't force you to use OOP you have a choice on the other hand, MS NET forces you to use OOP in fact, everything in NET programming is heavily OOP stuff

2. freebasic (and other BASIC's) are mostly free open source and free software NET is a proprietary Framework where Microsoft tells you and decides for you what you can and cannot do or how you should do so

3. freebasic is BASIC VB.NET is not it's just NET Framework with BASIC Syntax freebasic is lightweight and elegant NET is bloated (18.6 GB download of the visual Studio with NET Framework and Core Framework and UWP? while freebasic is just less than 151 MB of the 32-bit Compiler)

4. when you learn freebasic or BASIC you learn to code and program when you learn NET (VB.NET and C Sharp) you just learn how to use the NET Framework with its limitations and OOP Libs and Framework

5. what you code in freebasic is YOURS and you are FREE to do with it as YOU CHOOSE what you code in VB.NET and C Sharp Microsoft ALLOWS you to USE and maybe even sell BUT it's NOT YOURS it's THEIRS

Discussion about OOP versus structured-unstructured BASIC is the theme of the OP.

Now you are opening up a whole different discussion of open/closed-source and freedom.  That is a totally different scope of discussion.

That is an aspect of all BASIC implementations: either open or closed source.

Knock out closed source, and you knock out some pretty cool/interesting BASIC-related stuff.

All BASIC implementations, whether open-source or closed source, are generally good for all other BASIC implementations.  (even if just to generate ideas)

BASIC programming is BASIC programming, without prejudice.

I'm not a fan of blocking discussions about any closed-source and "evil" BASIC implementation when there are always at least little things folk do with those BASIC implementations that might give ideas of how to do things, or NOT do things, with whatever BASIC one loves.

My love of BASIC does not exclude any BASIC, even the ones I hate or am suspicious of.

Success of BASIC, as in it still having a pulse, is helped when we adopt a cooperative-competition and inclusive mindset.

An exclusive mindset is a detriment to continued interest in BASIC.

Acceptance of the bad (warts and all) along with the good.

However evil a BASIC may be, there are always some good things to find in there, and it is easy to identify and ignore the bad.

Ignore the evil BASIC implementations all-together, and you risk missing out on some gems that are actually good for all BASIC implementations.

It's okay to have a dogmatic view about anything, but one should not cut off one's nose to spite one's own face.  Don't let a dogmatic view deny for yourself or others the (even if few) good things from the evil ones.

CharlieJV

And even with the latest new-fangled stuff, retro (or retro-ish) is still possible.

Even if not retro, the new-fangled stuff can inspire some pretty awesome "how would I do this in a retro-way" ideas and creations.

Sources of inspiration for Retro goodness can come from all kinds of interesting places.  Slapping rigid blinders/walls that limit sources of inspiration, that's kind of tragic.

CharlieJV

#5
Quote from: aurel on May 24, 2023, 02:24 PMOh so you have BASIC-s you hate and some of them are suspicious?


Well, you're right.  It isn't "hate", but more "strongly dislike".

And "suspicious" isn't so much about the product, but rather about the intentions of whoever is creating and supporting a product.  (Say, as a wildly creative/extreme thought: an entity embracing "whatever" in order to actually kill it.)

All of that said, any "BASIC/BASIC-like/BASIC-ish" implementation that I may strongly dislike or have suspicions about, I still see the success of it, and the value in it, being generally good for BASIC in general.  Whether I use it or not, I still cheer it on from the sidelines.

mysoft

oh well it's simple then... we will allow posts about VB as long .NET or OOP is not used... then feel free to use it as retro without that :D

CharlieJV

#7
Quote from: mysoft on May 24, 2023, 02:37 PMoh well it's simple then... we will allow posts about VB as long .NET or OOP is not used... then feel free to use it as retro without that :D

But even something done in a .NET or OOP way can get the creative juices flowing for the folk who think "how would I do that in a more/strictly structured/unstructured BASIC way."

Sources of inspiration from even semi-BASIC-ish things can be pretty good.

(It is a "brain-age-type" game for me to look at something and wonder "how would I do that" in another way?)

mysoft

#8
anyway so let's settle as this... i think that the C# subforum must go... because that is totally contrady to the wishes of the forum... and since people dont use vb.net much, we leave as it be, and tolerate it's presence, as long it remains unpopular

for example if anything happens on that forum that turn to much attention to such vb.net forum the post must be removed.
if people abuse in any way using it for modern stuff, the post must be removed
if people post anything there that requires modern versions of .net that wont work on retro systems... the post must be removed.

CharlieJV

Quote from: mysoft on May 24, 2023, 02:49 PManyway so let's settle as this... i think that the C# subforum must go

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